tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post1061955429471736207..comments2023-09-09T11:07:31.879-04:00Comments on Blacktating: Choosing the new cover for the Easy Guide to BreastfeedingElitahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01294923997458681675noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-84701426498460379942012-05-25T02:47:12.145-04:002012-05-25T02:47:12.145-04:00The whole "reverse racism" argument is f...The whole "reverse racism" argument is faulty, Caroline. Like Elita said, examine your white privilege. I was lucky enough to have people telling me to do so, and it is eye opening.IBCLCin2013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-13887082795730679632010-06-06T08:51:06.218-04:002010-06-06T08:51:06.218-04:00I'm not sure if you've seen some of the ne...I'm not sure if you've seen some of the new Canadian government's breastfeeding guides, but both of them include pictures representative of a variety of different ethnic groups, on both the covers and inside. <br /><br />Here is a link:<br /><br />http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/dca-dea/prenatal/nutrition-eng.phpAnnie @ PhD in Parentinghttp://phdinparenting.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-12681607621238577872010-05-19T21:28:59.219-04:002010-05-19T21:28:59.219-04:00I think I get your point. But, I think you missed...I think I get your point. But, I think you missed mine. You should note that I used the term "dominant," never majority. Ethnically, I am in the same sort of status as you. I am second generation Italian; my grandparents were dirt poor in Italy. They suffered horrible discrimination here, and then at some point in the 20th Century, most of that discrimination subsided and it was not because Italians became a majority, although if we had, the food in this country would really rock. It was because Italians became "white" according to the dominant view. (There is a lot of academic literature on this subject.) When you slice up demographics in terms of minority and majority, all things are possible, everyone is a member of some sort of a minority. The issue is dominance, and unlike the seemingly objective certainty of mathematical calculations and percentages, dominance is a cultural and socio-economic measure of power, which can and usually is held by a few, rather than many, members of any society. Ours is no exception. My post was intended to point out that the real danger is the racism that lurks in notions like "color-blind" and "even-handed" because these are terms that are used to level the differences among us as though they didn't actually exit. Just like the racist who always uses "African-American" and not the noun that other noun that he /she is thinking, we have to be careful not to accept institutional norms as though they are automatically "fair." The point is not to accuse people who are "white" of having participated in slavery, my ancestors were living in L'Aquila when slavery was the dominant form of labor in America. As individuals, we had nothing to do with it. But, to think that gaining membership in the privileged definition of "whiteness" is not a product of dominant institutional racism is narrow. There is one thing that you and I have never been and have no ancestors who have ever been: a African American slave. And, there is one thing that African Americans will never be: "white."Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-21555734349535423642010-05-18T22:14:02.725-04:002010-05-18T22:14:02.725-04:00Well stated! (: I completely agree.Well stated! (: I completely agree.Carlanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-19553845911759186992010-05-18T07:09:50.087-04:002010-05-18T07:09:50.087-04:00I just saw that. Honestly I'm not sure it'...I just saw that. Honestly I'm not sure it's any better. That woman is of indiscriminate race and she doesn't even look like she's really breastfeeding. The photo is just weird.Elita @ Blacktatinghttp://www.blacktating.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-68436069566217994962010-05-18T07:09:02.964-04:002010-05-18T07:09:02.964-04:00Hi, did you even read my post? I'm well aware ...Hi, did you even read my post? I'm well aware that there are separate (but equal!) versions of the document for other ethnicities. It still doesn't make it OK that all of the women for the "general, for all women" pamphlet were white.Elita @ Blacktatinghttp://www.blacktating.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-64916205187886241342010-05-18T07:07:06.140-04:002010-05-18T07:07:06.140-04:00Carla, thank you for your honest and insightful co...Carla, thank you for your honest and insightful comment. The point is that something that is supposed to be for "everyone" doesn't always have to be automatically represented by a white person. The fact that it never crossed their minds to use anyone but a white woman doesn't make them racist, but it is indicative of a bigger problem. White people are always the default and everyone else is "other." If all of the options had been black women (which would have never happened) you can bet all of the people on here saying they "didn't even notice the race" would have said, "Oh, this must be for the black version" and probably wouldn't have even voted. Why can a white woman be the representation for all women, but a woman of color can't?Elita @ Blacktatinghttp://www.blacktating.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-24732745541820257252010-05-18T00:58:27.073-04:002010-05-18T00:58:27.073-04:00I've been thinking about this a lot and discus...I've been thinking about this a lot and discussing it with my boyfriend (for the record, I'm white, he's black). His thinking is that if they're going to have a general guide, you can't have one person be the centerpiece, because then their "group" becomes the de facto target audience. The group picture idea sounds great to both of us, or perhaps an abstract representation of a mother and baby nursing (international breastfeeding symbol, for example)...<br /><br />The whole point of the guide is to make breastfeeding accessible and encourage women to feel empowered to do it, right? So right off the bat, they made a huge error by making the "general" guide very limited in its options. They're basically (if unintentionally) saying that if you don't fit this "look," the guide--and, by extension, breastfeeding--may not be for you (even if this is subtle, it's still a message that comes through). The simple fact is people DO tend to have an easier time relating to those with whom they see similarities--and with a photo, the only opportunities they have to seek similarities are based on physical appearance.<br /><br />I could understand creating a "Caucasian" guide (which would make sense given the other targeted booklets), because I've seen research referenced by organizations I respect, like the Massachusetts Breastfeeding Coalition, indicating that there can be substantial differences in how breastfeeding is perceived in different ethnic/cultural groups. For example, the kinds of things that are persuasive for women ultimately deciding to nurse, the objections that are raised in families, etc. So I do actually see some potential value in addressing those in different materials, although I think a focus on *culture* would be far better than a focus on skin color for distinguishing the guides, because skin color really isn't the issue. Or even just have a thorough guide that addresses all of the concerns that have been seen in different ethnicities, so it's accessible to everyone.<br /><br />But it just seems really simplistic and short-sighted to create a general guide--for all women--and then only have one ethnicity/culture to choose from (regardless of which one it is, really). I actually think the same objections could be raised if all of the options were black women, for example, but the likelihood of that happening is very low. I cannot imagine the general guide only having, say, Hispanic women (or even, say, only people with dwarfism, since they're a minority, too) as an option--it would be perceived as politically incorrect or reverse racism. But a lot of people ignore that when the dominant race is the one at issue--I wonder if I would have even noticed the limited options had Elita not pointed it out.Carlanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-16072121226655338382010-05-17T23:14:31.930-04:002010-05-17T23:14:31.930-04:00I just wanted to comment back to Steve. This is no...I just wanted to comment back to Steve. This is not to get caught up in the racial discussion, as this is not what the post is about, but just to build on what you have said. On the surface, I am a middle-class white woman. I have often been lumped together with people whose families did own slaves many generations back. However, I am only second generation in this country, and I am a member of a group that has probably been the recipient of more prejudice and oppression than any other group throughout history - My mother is Jewish. Does being Jewish in America make me a minority? Absolutely. Does being a white woman make me the majority? Absolutely. It's an interesting thing to note, I think. I just hate how people can assume that because I am white I have my roots grounded in this country for 200 years and my family somehow had something to do with what was going on in this country at that time. <br /><br />Anyway, the idea of creating a cover with multiple woman of different ethnicities breastfeeding their children together in a natural setting is a great idea! I wish I was a member of that group :-)huppiemamahttp://huppiemama.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-8355518006077744342010-05-17T22:27:22.291-04:002010-05-17T22:27:22.291-04:00breastfeeding.
"This publication is the firs...breastfeeding.<br /><br />"This publication is the first among our current series to be updated. New versions for African American and American Indian and Alaskan Native women will also be developed in the near future, as will guides in Spanish and other languages."Alllyssanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-44755398770665628452010-05-17T14:19:17.585-04:002010-05-17T14:19:17.585-04:00Interesting - I just clicked over there, and the p...Interesting - I just clicked over there, and the photos are not the same as in the screen shot you posted...seems as if someone may have heard you!Jennhttp://www.lifeontheroof.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-57372644830286771212010-05-15T09:40:42.583-04:002010-05-15T09:40:42.583-04:00I would love to see a photo of women of multiple e...I would love to see a photo of women of multiple ethnicities represented. I'd like to see them casually sitting together while they just happen to be breastfeeding their babies. It would demonstrate as well that mothers don't have to be isolated in their homes as they breastfeed.<br /><br />I've used these publications in my work as an IBCLC at a WIC clinic and I found the Spanish version to be helpful for mothers who only or primarily spoke Spanish. I used the former pamphlet with the blue cover (the one for everyone) for nearly everyone else. I had about 50 copies of the "An Easy Guide to Breastfeeding For African American Women" (http://www.womenshealth.gov/pub/bf.aa.pdf) only twice. It made me feel uncomfortable because I felt that, for me, it was odd to be saying that I was giving different advice to women based on their color. Also, some women I helped were from Sudan or a few other countries in Africa. Which guide was I was supposed to use for them? And what about the Middle Eastern women I helped? I tended to just use the blue guide which was for everyone. I wondered how it made an African American woman feel if I, as a white IBCLC, gave them the AA Guide. I asked one mom to take home both the blue copy and the AA copy once, bring it back and tell me if she found one more helpful than the other. But she never came back and I have wondered many times if I offended her horribly by asking her to do that. It always felt strange to me. I found the http://www.womenshealth.gov/pub/BF.General.pdf general guide to be very useful, not just for prenatal information but I hoped that women would keep it and refer back to it as needed as their babies grew older.Sarahttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/4MKZO5LULI7HNVRYNOL4XNUNQYnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-15205174862530164172010-05-13T20:29:28.248-04:002010-05-13T20:29:28.248-04:00The entire set of comments up to now (18 and count...The entire set of comments up to now (18 and counting) provide ample support for Elita's position. America is NOT a melting pot. No respectable sociologist has taken that position in almost 60 years. This country has always been stratified by race and ethnic divisions, and "white" people have always been dominant in terms of political power and economic status. In addition, most current studies on the concept of "whiteness" come to the uncontroversial conclusion that its definition shifts to mean whatever the dominant societal group wants it to mean at the time. It is a political not a biological status. As WEB DuBois wrote over a century ago, the fundamental problem in America is the problem of the color line. A society built on a economic foundation that was wholly dependant upon 3 centuries of race-based slavery can hardly claim otherwise. <br /><br />Somebody decided to provide those three photos as the only choices for the cover, consciously or unconsciously, they decided that all three would include only members of the dominant "race." This is not because the person making the decision is a racist, we have no way of knowing that, and it is irrelevant. It is because the institutions of government and business are pervasively, but frequently imperceptibly, racist. <br /><br />Someone innocently made the point that companies use racial targeting in their advertising based upon regional demographics. The cigarette brands and beer brands did that for decades. It was then and is now based upon racial or ethnic stereotyping. It is evidence of racism itself, not even-handedness.<br /><br />The most insidious forms of racism and ethnic oppression frequently masquerade as even-handed. And, the people who are most likely to be incapable of recognizing this are frequently the ones who have been "defined-in" to the dominant notion of "white." They have never known the subjective pain of unremitting oppression based upon nothing more than an immutable physical characteristic they happen to possess.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-56132256205056299962010-05-13T20:28:43.447-04:002010-05-13T20:28:43.447-04:00The entire set of comments up to now (18 and count...The entire set of comments up to now (18 and counting) provide ample support for Elita's position. America is NOT a melting pot. No respectable sociologist has taken that position in almost 60 years. This country has always been stratified by race and ethnic divisions, and "white" people have always been dominant in terms of political power and economic status. In addition, most current studies on the concept of "whiteness" come to the uncontroversial conclusion that its definition shifts to mean whatever the dominant societal group wants it to mean at the time. It is a political not a biological status. As WEB DuBois wrote over a century ago, the fundamental problem in America is the problem of the color line. A society built on a economic foundation that was wholly dependant upon 3 centuries of race-based slavery can hardly claim otherwise. <br /><br />Somebody decided to provide those three photos as the only choices for the cover, consciously or unconsciously, they decided that all three would include only members of the dominant "race." This is not because the person making the decision is a racist, we have no way of knowing that, and it is irrelevant. It is because the institutions of government and business are pervasively, but frequently imperceptibly, racist. <br /><br />Someone innocently made the point that companies use racial targeting in their advertising based upon regional demographics. The cigarette brands and beer brands did that for decades. It was then and is now based upon racial or ethnic stereotyping. It is evidence of racism itself, not even-handedness.<br /><br />The most insidious forms of racism and ethnic oppression frequently masquerade as even-handed. And, the people who are most likely to be incapable of recognizing this are frequently the ones who have been "defined-in" to the dominant notion of "white." They have never known the subjective pain of unremitting oppression based upon nothing more than an immutable physical characteristic they happen to possess.Stevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-10108659591651803142010-05-13T18:54:41.318-04:002010-05-13T18:54:41.318-04:00Also I agree with some who mentioned having a grou...Also I agree with some who mentioned having a group of women of varying races breastfeeding! That would be wonderful and I think that would have more of a profound impact!MamaAgainstTheGrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-28763577541740260762010-05-13T18:52:56.366-04:002010-05-13T18:52:56.366-04:00Interesting to hear some of these comments to say ...Interesting to hear some of these comments to say the least....I wish people would get it through there head that FIRST the issue is the lack of diversity in the choices we have available. Ya know what I'm "annoyed with ignorance" as well because so many people are quick to jump the gun...I completely agree that we should be given a CHOICE to choose from women of varying races to represent the cover of this magazine...Please tell me whats wrong with that? The whole not judging a book by its cover is sadly being misinterpreted in this instance.... If the cover of the book didnt matter then they wouldnt have a contest to for us to JUDGE who will be on the cover or not...if the U.S. government is truly asking people to make a choice, we have to be given choices. "White, white or white"? Why is that so when we live in America known for its melting pot of varying races...MamaAgainstTheGrainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-30713472634817071522010-05-13T15:49:35.353-04:002010-05-13T15:49:35.353-04:00Completely agree with you Elita. The majority of m...Completely agree with you Elita. The majority of mothers in the U.S. currently are non-white. Hopefully people are not voting on the basis of skin color. I think some are voting based on whether the child can be clearly seen breastfeeding since much breastfeeding literature hides the act itself in the art. But HHS should know better than to assume "average mom" is white.Jake Aryeh Marcushttp://www.SustainableMothering.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-39495015124785812292010-05-13T08:03:20.950-04:002010-05-13T08:03:20.950-04:00Rather than one woman, of whatever race, posing......Rather than one woman, of whatever race, posing... why not 2 or 3 women nursing their babies... out in public, like at a park with their older kids playing underfoot? You know, like real moms and their friends do with their kids?Connienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-58600234198121977472010-05-12T21:23:09.112-04:002010-05-12T21:23:09.112-04:00Hmmm...I have fairly mixed views about this. I thi...Hmmm...I have fairly mixed views about this. I think the one thing we should remove from this argument is the intent. I don't think anyone was intentionally left out. I think that whoever designed this cover just happened to pick those images. If I had a hundred images to pick from of all different woman of all ethnicities breastfeeding their children, the first thing I'd probably look at is the bond shown between the mother and child. I don't think I'd notice what ethnicity she was. I would want a strong-looking woman who was proud to breastfeed her child, smiling, engaged with her baby, etc. However, I would hope to find diverse-looking women who would all show that level of comfort while nurturing their young. Secondly, I don't understand why one breastfeeding guide, with women of all different ethnicities pictured within the guide, would be inappropriate. Why must each group be targeted separately? I understand that different groups face different circumstances/situations... but I am a middle-class white woman, and I have still faced a lot of adversity when it comes to breastfeeding. No one in my family ever breastfed, few of my friends have, and many people I know are somewhat disgusted by breastfeeding. I have to advocate what is best for my family and my child, as any woman may have to do. I would hope that we could all find common threads as breastfeeding mothers...regardless of who was on the cover of a breastfeeding guide.huppiemamanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-79800022833968448042010-05-12T10:57:10.042-04:002010-05-12T10:57:10.042-04:00I did. I am a minority. I grew up in a town wher...I did. I am a minority. I grew up in a town where I was one of few (less than 5 in my HS). I still agree that it shouldn't make a difference, and especially make people irate when "their race" isn't what's prevalent in society. Your tone and response is what fosters racism. You create racism by asking others to choose someone because of race. Maybe the magazine chose the women for the covers because of reasons OTHER than the color of their skin. The last think I look at is the color of the skin. I don't care what color their skin is, I care about the content of the information. I relate to the woman because she is a woman and a mother. I don't need her to have darker skin to make her more like me. Why do you judge based on skin color?Carolinehttp://www.SmartyPantsMama.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-55044460182296415422010-05-12T10:30:00.301-04:002010-05-12T10:30:00.301-04:00It seems quite fair to all ethnicities that there ...It seems quite fair to all ethnicities that there is a separate breastfeeding guide dedicated to the African American community, the Hispanic community and the Native American community - as well as the general market. The fact that the Federal government dedicated separate guides to all these groups clearly shows they ARE focusing on diverse communities and should be applauded. The general guide is for a general audience, and if there are diverse photos within the entire document it appears they are trying to address all groups including Caucasians. There are other things that are far more offensive.What is all the fuss about?noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-82542576739400151922010-05-12T10:28:44.154-04:002010-05-12T10:28:44.154-04:00It seems quite fair to all ethnicities that there ...It seems quite fair to all ethnicities that there is a separate breastfeeding guide dedicated to the African American community, the Hispanic community and the Native American community - as well as the general market. The fact that the Federal government dedicated separate guides to all these groups clearly shows they ARE focusing on diverse communities and should be applauded. The general guide is for a general audience, and if there are diverse photos within the entire document it appears they are trying to address all groups. There are other things that are far more offensive and it's not clear why there is a controversy being created when there really should not be one.What is all the fuss about?noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-61602768484449667892010-05-12T08:55:00.382-04:002010-05-12T08:55:00.382-04:00I don't think it's too dramatic at all. It...I don't think it's too dramatic at all. It sounds to be like you need to take a moment to examine your privilege. Just because Blacks, Hispanics and Asians are ethnic minorities in this country doesn't mean we don't need to see ourselves represented in ads and on TV and in magazines. No one is complaining about them having a white woman as an option, I am complaining because there were absolutely zero women of color as an option. I think it says a lot about you that your first response is to whine about how white people are no longer free to be racist in public.<br />Take some time today to look at all the ads you are bombarded with, and then pay attention to the TV shows you watch. How many people of color do you see? Now imagine the opposite. Pretend every white person you see represented in mainstream media is black. Every model, every actor, every spokesperson. Would you not get annoyed and wonder why you can never find someone that looks like you used to sell toilet paper or promote breastfeeding? You are probably the same type of person who not only rolls her eyes when people of color complain about underrepresentation, but then also gets annoyed when we create our own avenues for exposure, like Latina magazine or the Miss Black America pageant.I don't think it's too dramatic at all. It sounds to be like you need to take a moment to examine your privilege. Just because Blacks, Hispanics and Asians are ethnic minorities in this country doesn't mean we don't need to see ourselves represented in ads and on TV and in magazines. No one is complaining about them having a white woman as an option, I am complaining because there were absolutely zero women of color as an option. I think it says a lot about you that your first response is to whine about how white people are no longer free to be racist in public.<br />Take some time today to look at all the ads you are bombarded with, and then pay attention to the TV shows you watch. How many people of color do you see? Now imagine the opposite. Pretend every white person you see represented in mainstream media is black. Every model, every actor, every spokesperson. Would you not get annoyed and wonder why you can never find someone that looks like you used to sell toilet paper or promote breastfeeding? You are probably the same type of person who not only rolls her eyes when people of color complain about underrepresentation, but then also gets annoyed when we create our own avenues for exposure, like Latina magazine or the Miss Black America pageant.Elita @ Blacktatinghttp://www.blacktating.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-18344393679361294352010-05-12T08:07:02.148-04:002010-05-12T08:07:02.148-04:00EPIC FAIL ?- a bit dramatic.
In my eyes, the ma...EPIC FAIL ?- a bit dramatic. <br /><br />In my eyes, the majority of women in this country are Caucasian. It makes sense that advertisers make their ads towards the majority. If I lived in China, I would expect them to have an Asian woman on the cover. <br />In the USA, as we are a melting pot, yet still majority are white advertisers can tailor their markets geographically. For example, we tend to see more Hispanic models dawning the covers in South Florida, more African-Americas/Black in Philadelphia stories and Asians in certain areas of California. <br />Just my opinion, I mean no disrespect for yours.<br />I too am a majority but I find no problem with their choice. Just imagine if a Caucasian woman complained about a African American woman on the cover of a magazine....the uproar. This debate always is very sided. <br />CarolineCarolinehttp://www.SmartyPantsMama.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3536683374417960813.post-38241798941725605882010-05-11T23:16:29.444-04:002010-05-11T23:16:29.444-04:00You obviously missed the point.....and feeding &qu...You obviously missed the point.....and feeding "the trolls".....wow, now that's clever, sure wish I had thought of that.Annoyed with ignorancenoreply@blogger.com